Posts by Cold Steel

5

Dying to find out if you made it to Paradise

by Juan Viejo2 in

i remember as a jw kid listening to a special talk about life after death by lester dugan, a circuit overseer whose mother attended our kingdom hall.

i don't think he was our circuit servant (in fact i'm pretty sure he was not), but he would visit our hall about twice a year when he took time to see his elderly mom.. his talk was about life after death and achieving paradise through good works and staying active in the preaching work.

after nearly 60 years, i remember very little of the bulk of his talk, but i do remember a couple of questions that he answered afterwards:.

Cold Steel

All animals, like men, are eternal. And all animals are covered because of the atonement of Christ and will be resurrected. I’ve heard some Christians say that animals were simply designed either for food, labor or companionship, and thus they don’t have spirits. JWs teach that only humans will be resurrected, but anyone who’s been around a good dog (or cat) knows that animals can love, hate, be envious, feel embarrassment and experience humor. My mother’s cat even launched itself at my dad one evening when he suffered a cramp in his leg. He began moaning and carrying on loudly and reached out for my mother for support. The cat apparently thought my mother was being attacked and he literally put himself between her and my dad, then went for his leg with tooth and claw. Unfortunately, the cramp was continuing through all this and my dad was yelling, “Get the cat off of me! Get him off!” My mother was able to pry the cat off, but it growled menacingly until my dad collapsed on the bed with some salt he takes for such cramps. I also read of an intruder who was attacked as he ascended the stairs to rape the homeowner upstairs. The cat was black and the intruder never saw it coming. He ended up falling down the staircase and breaking his neck. The guy had a long record of criminal violence and sexual assault. (And there are plenty of stories about dogs that defend their human buddies and their families.) I think people who don’t believe animals will be resurrected really don’t know much about them.

So yeah, your dog will survive death as a spirit and will be resurrected just like all humans, both the righteous and the wicked. And chances are that he'll look as forward to seeing you as you are in seeing him.

5

Dying to find out if you made it to Paradise

by Juan Viejo2 in

i remember as a jw kid listening to a special talk about life after death by lester dugan, a circuit overseer whose mother attended our kingdom hall.

i don't think he was our circuit servant (in fact i'm pretty sure he was not), but he would visit our hall about twice a year when he took time to see his elderly mom.. his talk was about life after death and achieving paradise through good works and staying active in the preaching work.

after nearly 60 years, i remember very little of the bulk of his talk, but i do remember a couple of questions that he answered afterwards:.

Cold Steel

Well, you guys are in for a pleasant surprise. Yes, you'll know in an instant because you'll be looking down at your body while you're standing above it. At some point you will be greeted by family members and ushered into the spirit realm, where Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. There will still be a prison for the unrighteous, but it will be a Paradise for those who are good, decent, honorable people. You may even be met by people you knew before you were born...people who lived at different times upon the earth (see Jeremiah 1:5). Don't ever think you could be satisfied staying forever in a garden like Eden! We don't know what we'll become, but the righteous will become joint heirs with Christ, inheriting all that the Father has.

After the resurrection, when your body and spirit will be reunited, you will be able to visit other kingdoms and glories throughout the Universe and things that will amaze you. The earth will later be cleansed by fire and will become a brilliant planet composed of both glory and beauty, suitable for the presence of God. Your body will not be a body of flesh and blood, but a resurrected body of flesh, bone and spirit. Like Jesus, you will be able to go through walls and ceilings, go vast distances at the speed of thought and enjoy relationships with people you've known for untold generations.

At death, you will not know "nothing" as stated in Ecclesiastes. The writer of that book was not even a prophet. He was a philosopher and knew nothing of either life or death. Solomon was a king, and someone who had ruined his life through the taking of many heathen wives and had erected many heathen sites of worship. He was old, tired and had a lousy outlook on life. The NT writers talk of the body as being a tabernacle, with a spirit inside. Leaving it was like taking off a coat or a glove. You may not believe me now, but if you remain righteous, you've got some amazing surprises. Just don't put me in a stupid garden. Adam was never intended to stay there. He was supposed to fall and then be redeemed. Only that way can we, his descendents, become like unto God, as the ancient Christians taught.

14

Books to study before baptism

by QueenWitch in

i'm doing a blog post on dedication and baptism.

is there a comprehensive list of the books needed to study and the years in effect?

i was baptized in 1992 and i think one of the books were united in worship...(blue book).

Cold Steel

There was a little blue hardback book that was called, I think, THE TRUTH THAT LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE. Don't know what years it was in print.

8

British former politician shunned by father because of religion

by Xanthippe in

i was reading in the guardian yesterday about edwina currie, former british mp and junior health minister in the eighties.. when she married out of the orthodox jewish faith her father refused to speak to her again (even though he was an atheist and used to go round to a friend's house for bacon butties).. her mother kept in touch and loved her grandchildren but her father would drive her mum to visit but stay in the car.

.

just reminded me that i am not the only one to suffer from shunning due to relisgious differences.

Cold Steel

Scientology, Mormonism and others religions also have a structured shunning policy in place. Religious leaders want to protect the power and control over people, at all cost and by any means.

That's a pretty cynical view of relgion, and I can tell you for a fact that Mormonism has no "structured shunning policy" established. In fact, LDS church leaders actively discourage shunning because it's more likely to drive offenders away, and the idea is to bring them back. I can't speak for Scientology, but I don't know many Christian religions that practice formal shunning. Some families may decide to shun offenders on their own volition, but I know of no Christian faith that actively encourages it...except the Jehovah's Witnesses and perhaps some Pentacostal or evangelical fringe groups like the Westboro wackos.

In some cases, the Orthodox churches practice shunning, but again it's mostly family oriented. A local priest of a Greek Orthodox church shunned his son when he married a black woman. It wasn't because she wasn't Orthodox because she offered to join. I don't even think it was entirely her skin color. I think it was more because of the drastic cultural difference. I used to like Greek women a lot, but they were only interested in Greek men for the most part. (And Greek men liked marrying blonde gals with blue eyes, but that's another story.) Anyway, the priest's parishioners brought the priest eggs to show their support and to solace him. But they didn't shun the priest's son or his wife; however, the priest and his wife and family did. I think the priest and his family were just used to Greeks and Greek-Americans. They liked Greek food and Greek music, and they loved speaking Greek. A black family, on the other hand, might serve glazed ham, mashed potatoes, deviled eggs, green beans, ice tea for the main course and pie or cake for dessert. While that may be my type of food, many Greeks would prefer eating poison! (And I'm sure the black family would rather eat poison than Greek food.)

Shunning is a natural human reaction, but only cults that are into control actively encourage it because it's an effective vindictive tool and discourages dissension.

20

Has the rescent change in the identity of the FDS been released in print yet

by A.M. Number 1 in

just wondering what wt issue has actually put it down in print.

i know that some of my jw frineds already know about it, but they didn't tell me if it was an announcement at the hall or actually in the wt..

Cold Steel

It seems as though it's a formal consolidation of power. Not that they didn't have it, but somewhere along the line someone realized they needed authority from God. If a committee is going to claim the authority to change doctrine or establish it as being authoritive, it's not enough to just publish it in the monthly magazines. Apparently this has become an issue, and it should. At some point the members of the Governing Body needed to shift the balance from being corporate executives to having the actual authority from God to speak decisively on theological issues.

But how does the information, or data, get from God's mouth to their ears? That's going to be the toughest issue they're going to have to address, and how the mechanics work is going to be the difficulty. They've pretty much ruled out angels, theophanies and visions, so what to do? The Catholics explain the Pope's inspiration as being latent—present but not evident. The Pope makes a declaration and even though he's not aware of any inspiration being present, it is in a way that even he doesn't understand. It's like the assumption of Mary into Heaven. Well, I agree with them...she was assumed into heaven, and it was the Pope who made the asumption! There was no scripture supporting it, neither was there any traditons. It was just something that Catholics think just came from Heaven, was focused into that pointy hat he wears and goes into his head without him being aware of it. Then he declares it! No one ever asks him how it came to him; it's enough that he said it. And as far as I can tell, this is exactly how it comes to the Governing Body. It's latent inspiration. The Governing Body also is self sustaining, and the members are invited to participate. When one of them dies or otherwise vacates a seat, the general membership has nothing to say on who moves into the body. In essence they become dictators, and if you don't like something they say, it's their way or the highway! And not only can they create and change doctrine, they can even turn your family and friends against you.

Now some may say, "Well, there's nothing new about this. Isn't that how the ancient apostles acted and were chosen?" Yes, but they did see angels, have theophanies, dreams, visions and other forms of revelation. The Governing Body does not. Had they been running things anciently, they wouldn't have needed Peter to have a revelation about taking the Gospel to the Gentiles or changing the policy on circumcision...they just would have done it without being aware of how or where it came from. And members wouldn't be justified in debating the blood transfusion issue—because the policy dictating it would come from the Governing Body, and it would no longer be a matter of exegesis, but of revelation from God.

That's quite a change when you think about it.

19

Maybe this is a way to get a Witness to use CRITICAL THINKING ?

by raymond frantz in

i have been trying recently different ways to get fellow witnesses to use their thinking faculties ,one that seems to work is the following :.

"would you believe in the trinity if the governing body told you to ?

because it is not in the bible .

Cold Steel

Your logic in this situation is impaired.

A JW might answer that the GB wouldn't teach the Trinity because it wasn't in the Bible. It would be like asking an Evangelical, "If Jesus told you to believe in Santa Claus, would you?" No! Why? Because it defies reality. And you can carry it on from there. If Santa Claus is the line one draws then where might other lines be drawn? Transubstantiation? People who aren't a member of their religion going to hell?

I know a Pentacostal who doesn't believe there's life on other worlds. She said that it would nullify Christ's atonement. How she arrives at that non sequitur is beyond me. Apparently she thinks God created the Universe to give the earth light at night. All those galaxies, each with billions of stars -- some that are completely invisible -- all made to give man something to look at in the night sky. The trillions of stars out there? Here today, gone tomorrow. It's child's play for God! No problem.

Let's say the governing board is who they think they are and Jehovah is behind them a hundred percent. Creating an "if" statement wouldn't work and shouldn't work. We should all get behind them and sustain them as God's servants. The problem is, they have no credentials. Have they spoken to God face to face, like Moses? No. Have they been chosen of Jesus as the ancient apostles were and have they been on a mount of transfiguration? No. Well, how can we tell they've been commissioned by God? Herbert W. Armstrong thought he had been called of God and he believed in many of the doctrines that JWs believe...only he wasn't on a first name basis with God. Oh, and Ellen G. White thought she was chosen of God and even had some visions of Peter and the Pearly Gates. And God told her he never changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, and she challenged scholars to show her chapter and verse where he made that change. Then there were all those Catholic children who had brunch with the Holy Mother. She wasn't interested in the Sabbath, but she had some warnings for the Popes. And so it goes. Like they say on The Sapranos, "Who ya gonna believe, eh?"

Me? I want credentials.

28

Disfellowshipped for reading "apostate literature"?

by Vanderhoven7 in

is reading apostate literature a disfellowshipping offense?.

do you know of people being disfellowshipped for this or for receiving apostate literature?.

.

Cold Steel

By it's definition, most of all WT's and other publications are now 'apostate' (teaching incorrect things), since the new GB=FDS bombshell.

What do you mean "bombshell"? Is this a recent declaration? Also, what are some of the other NEW teachings? Is there ever a chance that the Org will reverse itself on a doctrine like people not having spirits? Or is that one too big to give up on?

One question I've always had is whether any of the elders nationwide ever monitor this site. This has a lot of critical information, but of course how would anyone ever know who's on here? Any of you guys could be cranking out whatever you want here and no one would know.

Another question is: what is "apostate" literature? Let's say you're trucking along door to door and someone agrees to read your Watchtower if you'll read one of their pamphlets. What happens? Do you take the pamphlet, say you'll read it and dump it off at the first trash bin you come to? What happens if you keep your word and read it? Can you catch any grief?

17

Does God Have A Visible Organization On Earth Today?

by wannabe in

does god have a visible organization on earth today?.

is it not true, that jehovah had a representative line of kings sitting on his throne at jerusalem, and didn't that line of kings end when king zedekiah was deposed from the throne?

while it was operational could it not be said jehovah had a visible organization on earth while those kings were ruling?.

Cold Steel

Any church established by God will not be led by self-appointed governing bodies, but by commissioned agents called and ordained of God, as was Aaron. As with the ancient church it will be guided by revelation, have an open canon of scripture and be upheld by witnesses in keeping with the law of witnesses, which states that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. Finally, it will have the same officers as the ancient church with apostles, elders, priests, deacons, bishops and imbued by divine authority, having baptism by immersion and the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.

---------------------

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. (Revelation 14)

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24)

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? (Isaiah 29)

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Revelation 11)

3

beliefs, doctrine, teaching that you never could handle

by pontoon in

1) jehovah telling abraham to murder his son.

my reply; kill me now, i won't do it.

2) the bear killing i think 21 wise ass children.

Cold Steel

Some theology courses would go a long way in helping you understand these criticisms contextually.

----------------

1) Jehovah telling Abraham to murder his son. My reply; kill me now, I won't do it.

Murder is the shedding of innocent blood. What God was doing was asking him to sacrifice his son. A number of rabbinical documentaries, as well as Christian sources, indicate that Abraham knew the Lord's request was a test. But he needed faith to go through with it. The Jews think it was only a test and nothing more, while Christians understand God asking Abraham to sacrifice his only son was an object lesson pointing to God's sacrifice of His own Son.

2) The bear killing I think 21 wise ass children. Geeze, they were just children.

Actually, they weren't children and the bear didn't necessarily kill them, but "tore" them. As one scholar writes: Elisha "was set upon by a mob of mature youths (erroneously called 'little children ' in our version) who seem to have heard of Elijah's [ascension] and therefore taunted Elisha saying, 'Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.' Dr. Adam Clarke says the significance of this cry might be caught in the words, 'Ascend, thou empty skull, to heaven, as it is pretended thy master [Elijah] did.'" He adds: " The words, 'bald head' were often used in the old Hebrew vocabulary to imply leprosy since the disease often caused baldness. It was a term of hatred or derision." Regarding the "children," the citation reads: " The word naar...is used to describe Solomon at his accession, when he was at least twenty years old. (Geikie, Hours With the Bible, 4:127) Dr. Clarke says the word includes "a young man, a servant, or even a soldier, or one fit to go out to battle: and is so translated in a multitude of places in our common English version.' He mentions many examples. See Clarke, Bible Commentary, 2:486." The scripture also states that Elisha cursed them in the name of the Lord, indicating that it was God, who knows the thoughts of all men, was the one aggrieved, not the prophet.

3) The murderer and adulterer David got to live but his family paid. Wonder what Uziah will have to say to David in the resurection.

It's entirely possible that they've already spoken. People who die in consequence of the actions of others simply pass to another form of existence. Death isn't viewed by God in the same context that we view it. You see it as a punishment. God sees it as the return of a spirit to the spirit world and nothing more. You might be surprised to learn that many view returning to the beauty of the realm of the spirits is a blessing. Only in this world is death viewed as a punishment. In some cases, when the Lord orders the destruction of the wicked, it is a punishment because in some cases the punished find themselves in Hell, which is a temporary prison. David, when he departed this life, suffered in Hell and in his psalms he asked that the Lord not leave his spirit in Hell. Many view Hell as vindictive; I believe it is remedial. God doesn't involve himself in things with no purpose, neither is He unjust that He would leave someone (regardless of his crimes) in a burning Hell forever. Some have gone so far as to suggest that in Hell, men are their own tormentors. This is a view held by many of the early Christians.

4) Jehovah is humble and we have free will. But he'll murder you if you don't worship him.

God commands all men, and as our Father He has the prerogative of guiding and directing us. Even so, he gives men free agency to either accept Him or reject Him. Before man came to this earth, he was known to God and God was known to us. (Jeremiah 1:5) Again, death is subjective, and when the Lord orders anyone's destruction He does it for a good reason. But those who don't worship Him aren't "murdered." Often they live to ripe old ages and then die, where they are judged and taught. (1 Peter 3:18-19) In the end, every knee shall bend and every tongue confess Christ. (Philippians 2:10)

5) An old blood arguement that a transfusion=eating blood. Even as a dumb kid I thought that was stupid and wrong reasoning. We don't digest and matabolize our blood.

Agreed.

6

Who is the true Faithful Slave?

by wannabe in

who the true faithful slave really is!.

as we read through the parable of the faithful slave, uttered by jesus, it is, a serious error, to do as the governing body of the watchtower society does, conclude that there is merely only one master at issue in that parable.

but a closer look at that parable, reveals that there are two masters in question in that parable, not merely only one.

Cold Steel

Paul [tells] us that Jehovah has put all things in subjection under his [the Christ’s] feet, and gave him as HEAD over all things to the Church. So, the Christ, being as he is, “the head of the house,” would also, of necessity, make him the Faithful Slave that is appointed over the household of God . But Paul has more to say about the lofty position now held by the Christ, for note his next words: ... “God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of JesusEVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” [Philippians 2:8-11] ... Now, you all know just who the true Faithful Slave Really Is! It is definitely not, the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society!

Yes, thus the church is not the church of Jehovah, but is the church of Jesus Christ. But here’s something else to consider in this conundrum: Jesus wasn’t the faithful and wise servant. He was the master of the House, for the Father had so established him. “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?”

After Jesus was resurrected, he appeared to his disciples. After providing them with a boatload of fish, he asked them to dine with him on the shore.

So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. [Jesus] saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. (John 21)

So here Jesus commands his servant, Peter, to feed his sheep. Does that mean that the faithful and wise servant is Peter and the Twelve?

Yes...anciently.

But who was Jesus, the Messiah ben David? When Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, bringing about the fall of mankind, several things went on in the aftermath. First, the Father, who had freely communicated with them, no longer could. Not being able to look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, he needed an intercessor. Being able to comprehend the end from the Beginning, he had prepared for that eventuality by appointing a Messiah, an intercessor, a spirit of great power that we know by the name of “Jehovah.” It was Jehovah who judged Cain when Cain murdered Abel (John 5:22), and when Noah built his ark, it was Jehovah who ordered it and subsequently sent the flood. In the days of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, he was their God; and when the sky over Sinai grew dark and divine fire lit its heights, Moses and Jehovah communed face to face.

So while it’s true that Jesus feeds his flock, he does so through appointed messengers which are called and ordained. The problem is, the Governing Board’s claim to be the faithful and wise servant is shaky because to distribute food, one first must receive it—and by their own admission they do not receive outright revelation, but promptings. But from the Wikipedia we read: “Most members of the religion outside the Governing Body play no role in the development of doctrines and are expected to adhere to all those decided at Brooklyn headquarters. Jehovah's Witnesses are taught to welcome changes to their religion's doctrine, regarding such ‘adjustments’ as ‘new light’ or ‘new understanding’ from God and proving that they are on the ‘path of the righteous.’”

This is a far cry from the ancient apostles who received formal commissions from the Lord that could not be explained away as bad Italian food from the local food court. True revelation can come as promptings, but not at first. Theophanies, angelic ministrations, ordination and witnesses must all come first. Only then can anyone “feed my sheep.”